Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?  [ENDORSED]

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Inderpal Singh 2L
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Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Inderpal Singh 2L » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:10 pm

Since Empirical Formulas are ratios. Can empirical formulas ever be larger than the molecular formula? For instance, Glucose C6H12O6. Can the empirical formula be C12H24O6? I am guessing you would just simplify it down to C3H6O3.

OwenSumter_2F
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby OwenSumter_2F » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:18 pm

No, the empirical formula will either be the same as the molecular or smaller due to it being a ratio at the most simplified form. For example, Glucose C6H12O6 would simplify even further than you thought, going to CH2O.

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Chem_Mod » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:18 pm

For the empirical formula you want the simplest ratio.

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby sophie esherick 3H » Fri Oct 02, 2020 2:22 pm

Empirical formulas are the simplest ratio therefore they shouldn't necessarily be larger than the molecular formula. For glucose, the molecular formula is C6H12O6 so the empirical would be CH2O since it is the simplest (smallest) ratio of atoms in the compound. Sometimes molecular formula may equal the empirical formula but I'm pretty sure the empirical formula is not larger than the molecular formula. For the other example you used, C12H24O6, the empirical formula would be C2H4O as it is the simplest ratio. I hope that made sense or helped you at all!

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby David Chibukhchian 2G » Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:08 pm

I had a quick question regarding this subject. Does anyone know if when the empirical formula is the same as the molecular formula, does it matter which one you call it? Or should you state that it's both at the same time? I believe it makes no difference but I just want to make sure

Neel Bonthala 2G
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Neel Bonthala 2G » Fri Oct 02, 2020 4:22 pm

David Chibukhchian 1H wrote:I had a quick question regarding this subject. Does anyone know if when the empirical formula is the same as the molecular formula, does it matter which one you call it? Or should you state that it's both at the same time? I believe it makes no difference but I just want to make sure


Hey, I'm pretty sure that you would simply refer to that formula as the molecular formula rather than empirical. Even though the formula is in its simplest ratio, it is also in a state that shows the actual number of atoms, not simplified. So referring to it as molecular formula would seem to be more accurate, even though it also fits the description of an empirical formula.

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby David Chibukhchian 2G » Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:18 pm

Neel Bonthala wrote:
David Chibukhchian 1H wrote:I had a quick question regarding this subject. Does anyone know if when the empirical formula is the same as the molecular formula, does it matter which one you call it? Or should you state that it's both at the same time? I believe it makes no difference but I just want to make sure


Hey, I'm pretty sure that you would simply refer to that formula as the molecular formula rather than empirical. Even though the formula is in its simplest ratio, it is also in a state that shows the actual number of atoms, not simplified. So referring to it as molecular formula would seem to be more accurate, even though it also fits the description of an empirical formula.


Oh okay, that makes sense. I'm pretty sure referring to it as a molecular formula would be more accurate in case other compounds have that same empirical formula, so I totally agree. Thank you!

Jayasree Peri 2J
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Jayasree Peri 2J » Fri Oct 02, 2020 9:01 pm

David Chibukhchian 1H wrote:
Neel Bonthala wrote:
David Chibukhchian 1H wrote:I had a quick question regarding this subject. Does anyone know if when the empirical formula is the same as the molecular formula, does it matter which one you call it? Or should you state that it's both at the same time? I believe it makes no difference but I just want to make sure


Hey, I'm pretty sure that you would simply refer to that formula as the molecular formula rather than empirical. Even though the formula is in its simplest ratio, it is also in a state that shows the actual number of atoms, not simplified. So referring to it as molecular formula would seem to be more accurate, even though it also fits the description of an empirical formula.


Oh okay, that makes sense. I'm pretty sure referring to it as a molecular formula would be more accurate in case other compounds have that same empirical formula, so I totally agree. Thank you!



There might be some cases where they ask you to find the empirical and then the molecular formula, and both happen to be the same. In instances like this, it's probably even safer to make a note in your answer itself that, in this specific case, the empirical formula and molecular formula happen to be the same but still include (and differentiate between) both of them. I hope that made sense, but I just wanted to point that out!

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby David Chibukhchian 2G » Sat Oct 03, 2020 12:31 am

Jayasree Peri 3D wrote:
David Chibukhchian 1H wrote:
Neel Bonthala wrote:
Hey, I'm pretty sure that you would simply refer to that formula as the molecular formula rather than empirical. Even though the formula is in its simplest ratio, it is also in a state that shows the actual number of atoms, not simplified. So referring to it as molecular formula would seem to be more accurate, even though it also fits the description of an empirical formula.


Oh okay, that makes sense. I'm pretty sure referring to it as a molecular formula would be more accurate in case other compounds have that same empirical formula, so I totally agree. Thank you!



There might be some cases where they ask you to find the empirical and then the molecular formula, and both happen to be the same. In instances like this, it's probably even safer to make a note in your answer itself that, in this specific case, the empirical formula and molecular formula happen to be the same but still include (and differentiate between) both of them. I hope that made sense, but I just wanted to point that out!


Yeah that definitely makes sense. I also kind of assumed that the wisest option would be to just note that it's both the empirical and molecular formula at the same time (just to make it clear in the problem that you found that), so thank you!

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?  [ENDORSED]

Postby George_Yin_3I » Sun Oct 04, 2020 3:25 am

The answer is no. When the relative ratio of atoms cannot be divided further, the molecular formula may be the same as the empirical formula. However, the empirical formula cannot be greater in the number of atoms than molecular formula, given the definition of empirical formula being the simplest positive integer ratio of atoms present in a compound.

Aria Movassaghi 1A
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Aria Movassaghi 1A » Sun Oct 04, 2020 10:37 pm

Hey,

I'm pretty sure that the empirical formula will always be the simplest ratio of the molecule so it is impossible for the molecular formula to be greater. I will look into this though and see if there are any exceptions.

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Lucy_Balish_3G » Mon Oct 05, 2020 10:42 am

The empirical formula is always the most basic, simplified ratio. Thus, the molecular formula will either be the same or a multiple of that base ratio depending on the molar mass.

Justin Lin 1B
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Justin Lin 1B » Mon Oct 05, 2020 11:59 am

The empirical formula should always be in its simplest form, so it shouldn't ever be larger than your molecular formula. While it can't be larger than the molecular formula, your empirical formula can be the same as the molecular formula.

Jasraj Parmar 3H
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Jasraj Parmar 3H » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:06 pm

No, it is not possible for empirical formulas to be greater than molecular formulas. Empirical formula is the simplest whole number ratio of atoms in a compound. On the other hand, molecular formula is exactly the whole number ratio of various types. It is possible for the molecular formula to be equal to the empirical formula but the empirical formula will never be greater than the molecular formula.

James Patanian 2C
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HELP

Postby James Patanian 2C » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Guys, I have no idea how to post on this forum or contact anyone in the class but I hope Dr. Lavelle will explain it soon. I have a few questions though that maybe someone can answer: Is the code for the $72 ebook for the class from the UCLA website going to be emailed or physically mailed to my house? How do you post on this forum? Are the lecture slides found somewhere online or do we have to take our own notes by watching them? Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer because I am very confused on how this class is going to function.

James Patanian 2C
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby James Patanian 2C » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:15 pm

Also sorry I forgot to add this but is the class fully asynchronous now by watching the prerecorded lectures?

Ariel Guan 1H
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Re: HELP

Postby Ariel Guan 1H » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:35 pm

James Patanian 2B wrote:Guys, I have no idea how to post on this forum or contact anyone in the class but I hope Dr. Lavelle will explain it soon. I have a few questions though that maybe someone can answer: Is the code for the $72 ebook for the class from the UCLA website going to be emailed or physically mailed to my house? How do you post on this forum? Are the lecture slides found somewhere online or do we have to take our own notes by watching them? Thanks in advance to anyone who can answer because I am very confused on how this class is going to function.


The code is going to be mailed to you. To post, I'm pretty sure you pick whichever forum your question falls under and then at the top left somewhere there should be something that says "New Topic". Not sure about the other questions, but you can try going to his Office Hours and asking him then.

James Patanian 2C
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby James Patanian 2C » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:45 pm

Thank you Ariel, and I will attend his office hours for the other questions. Where does it say "New Topic" though in the top left? I only see Quick Links, Board Index, social media links in the top left area. I'm sorry if this sounds silly I just genuinely don't understand.

Ariel Guan 1H
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Ariel Guan 1H » Mon Oct 05, 2020 12:53 pm

James Patanian 2B wrote:Thank you Ariel, and I will attend his office hours for the other questions. Where does it say "New Topic" though in the top left? I only see Quick Links, Board Index, social media links in the top left area. I'm sorry if this sounds silly I just genuinely don't understand.


So if you look at the forum that this post is under, you will see "Empirical and Molecular Formulas", and below that you will see the Moderators. Under the moderators there should be "New Topic" in red.

James Patanian 2C
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby James Patanian 2C » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:07 pm

On my screen it only says "Post Reply" in red and I don't see "New Post." This is so weird.
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Ariel Guan 1H
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Ariel Guan 1H » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:13 pm

James Patanian 2B wrote:On my screen it only says "Post Reply" in red and I don't see "New Post." This is so weird.


Okay so that is because you are under the post and not the forum. Next to Board Index, click on where it says "Review of Chemical and Physical Principles". From there, you should see a list of a bunch of different forums, and when you click on any one of them, you should see New Topic in red text.

James Patanian 2C
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby James Patanian 2C » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:20 pm

Yes! Thank you so much. I really don't understand how we were expected to know how to operate this website without a basic walkthrough or something but I'm thankful that you were able to explain to me :)

Laura 3l
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Laura 3l » Mon Oct 05, 2020 1:44 pm

Since empirical formulas are the simplest ratio, then this means that the empirical formula cannot be larger than the molecular formula. It may be the same as the molecular formula, but not larger.

Stacey Phan 2I
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Stacey Phan 2I » Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:53 pm

Empirical formulas will never be larger than molecular formulas because empirical formulas are the simplest ratios of atoms in a molecule. However, empirical formulas can be the same as molecular formulas (ex: H2O).

AustinMcBrideDis3L
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby AustinMcBrideDis3L » Tue Oct 06, 2020 3:31 pm

No, The empirical formula should be the simplest ratio form of the molecular formula. If the empirical formula was larger than the molecular, the empirical formula must not be simplified to its simplest ratio.

Brenda Silva 1B
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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Brenda Silva 1B » Tue Oct 06, 2020 4:56 pm

The empirical formula could not be larger than the molecular formula because the empirical formula is a ratio of the molecular formula. Therefore, it could only be smaller or the same as the molecular formula.

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Re: Emprical Formulas Ever Larger than Molecular?

Postby Eunice_Castro_1G » Tue Oct 06, 2020 8:52 pm

Empirical formulas are never larger than their molecular formulas since empirical formulas are the smallest ratio (simplification) of the molecular formulas. For example, imagine 5/10 being the molecular formula and its simplification would be 1/2 (suppose this is the empirical formula), the simplification of something can never bigger than the original.


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